Ruha Benjamin, sociologist: ‘We need to destroy technology and listen to the people buried under the ruins of civilization’

Technology is not a magical force beyond our control, no matter how difficult it may be to understand certain aspects. It is created by certain people, and, more importantly, by different views of the world. Sociologist Ruha Benjamin, 46, a professor in the Department of African American Studies at Princeton University, has written four books that examine trends in technology, diversity, inequality and justice. A leading figure in his field, Benjamin challenges the narratives of big tech companies and advocates for causes in the Global South on his social media, with a particular focus on Palestine.

Benjamin was in Barcelona to participate in the Smart City Expo on the same day that Donald Trump was elected president of the United States. Although he feels it is too early to comment on the results of the election, he warns of the growing influence of the wave of opinion that is sweeping the world.

Question. Is a protest wall being built against everything you have been advocating in your books?

Answer. When people are faced with the fact that the ideal image they have of their community or group is a lie, the fallback is that people are comfortable with the lie. They don’t want to be challenged honestly about the history of racism in our societies, about the continuing inequalities and forms of oppression. Lies are comfortable for those who have been conditioned to consider themselves superior to others, because that superiority is threatened. And the politicians tell them that a lie is right, that a lie is the truth. We see it in the United States, Europe, or India, where I was born. The languages ​​are very similar: do something good again. But they were never pleasant to begin with, they were organizations based on slavery and genocide.

Q. What role do social media and big tech companies play in this reactionary movement?

A. They play a big role because they create bubbles that confirm what we already think. But more than social media, there are other technologies that have great effects on people’s lives. There are algorithms that decide who gets hired or fired. There are artificial intelligence tools that decide what grades students get in school, or are used in health and policing. Technology companies sell digital solutions that enhance the status quo and hide that behind neutrality and objectivity. The most powerful technology is the one we don’t know, but it gives us opportunities in life.

Q. In a recent article, you explore how advances in artificial intelligence (AI) are promoting inequality. Why does this happen?

A. When we talk about AI, we have to talk about the people behind it. Because when we start to look at these technologies, we realize that what we are being sold for the public good really serves the personal interests and the will of a small group of people who, in my opinion, suppress their views. to the rest of us, and to prove it in a way that makes it seem like it will benefit everyone. We must denigrate technology and talk about the eugenic values ​​that these people hold, where the lives of some are considered more important than others.

Q. AI is marketed as an almost magical technology.

A. And that is important for the monopolization of their power. Because when we are told that something is inevitable, we don’t try to change it. That also makes it more interesting, but we have to start calling these myths. Behind it are content managers in the Philippines, digital workers in Kenya, Amazon warehouse workers…people hidden from view. So we think when we use ChatGPT, the results happen miraculously. Many people are being injured so that some of us can have more functionality and comfort. We must take into account the workload and the environmental, energy and water costs required to train a single algorithm. We should ask ourselves if it is good.

Q. How should it be managed?

A. Pharmaceutical products must go through many tests before they reach the user. On the other hand, science is already experimenting on us, we are their clinical experiments. The US can look to the EU as the beginning of digital rights. We cannot allow technology companies to come in and push what was already there. For example, in Barcelona, ​​​​Uber gives you the option to search for taxis and public transport. It seems like a small difference, but it shows a change.

Q. And that came after the big taxi strike.

A. Just fine. It is the power of the people to say that we will not allow these companies to destroy our lives.

Q. In your latest book, Ideas: A Manifestoyou talk about the power of imagination but also how it exists at higher levels. Why?

A. Feedback is more important than ever. As in these options: we have been sold two options, with different ingredients, but neither is good for our health. The thought says, ‘Let’s accept these two options. We want to dream of a third, fourth, fifth choice.’ This applies to politics and anywhere else we are told it is impossible to do something. We are told: health care for all, is not possible. Free public transport, not possible. Yet we are told that we can go to Mars or create general AI. These abstract ideas of elites are sold to us as best we can. We can do this. Just give us your money. Trust us. We don’t have to buy into those ideas, and we need to grow our collective imaginations.

Q. In today’s age of conflict, where there are wars in Gaza, Sudan and Ukraine, how can imagination help?

A. The first thing is to understand that these conflicts, genocides and forms of violence are related. The problem with our thoughts is that they are too focused, when everything is directly related. That will change our finances, because now it seems that we don’t have money to help with floods and weather, but we have unlimited money for the military and wars. And now we must listen to the people buried under the ruins of civilization, literally and figuratively, if we want a world where everyone thrives.

Q. Technology is also used for actual destruction.

A. Technological innovation is not the same as social progress. Too much innovation can only reinforce old ways of thinking and situations. Technological progress often hides danger and violence. For example, AI systems that have to target more precisely than Israel, while making more targets than before, because they move faster. And it’s even more deadly. Intelligence conceived in this way grows out of this eugenic concept: some people are smart, some are not, and if you are not smart enough to create this technology, you will be bombed. But with technology, everything is hidden: at a technology conference like Smart Expo, there is an Israeli pavilion.

Q. Talking about this is a big problem in US universities. How do you feel about it?

A. Some call it “the new McCarthyism.” I’ve had colleagues fired for just talking about Gaza. My students are standing trial for a peaceful stay. We see the hypocrisy of many institutions, such as higher education, but also large companies, such as Google or Microsoft. They like to talk about freedom of speech, but now the truth comes out about their real values: following the rules.

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